TBN Update
I have been very busy pissing off TBN's prayer line and Benny Hinn's headquarters. I have some pretty good stuff recorded. Though I am scared to share it. I am a little scared of a legal battle. That is all I need, "Josh Sager of StupidChurchPeople.com being arrested."
I have to admit, I am a little intimidated by the size of TBN and the Benny Hinn Ministries. I am just one man wanting to fuck with them and I have a feeling that if I do so, I will end up getting fucked.
So ... If anyone has a legal way to mess with these ministries (oh I mean fuckers), LET ME KNOW!!!! LET'S DO THIS TOGETHER!!!
I have to admit, I am a little intimidated by the size of TBN and the Benny Hinn Ministries. I am just one man wanting to fuck with them and I have a feeling that if I do so, I will end up getting fucked.
So ... If anyone has a legal way to mess with these ministries (oh I mean fuckers), LET ME KNOW!!!! LET'S DO THIS TOGETHER!!!
posted by Joshua Sager at
3:25 PM
104 Comments:
I renew my invitation, dude. Let me know when you want to go down there.
Could you set up another website which mocks TBN under a pseudo name?
I wish I could think of a way. That said, Zeke's idea is pretty cool.
I think the "freedom of speech" clause protects you.
If they try to sue you, just call the ACLU, though I am not a big fan of them myself, they would love nothing more to just take down those two.
Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you.
I can't imagine that you'd get in trouble for re-broadcasting conversations u had with their prayer line.
brodcasting prayer line conversations will be perfectly legal. the consent lies in your lap, the answerer of the call is the only one legally obligated to secrecy, you could admit to killing 75 people, and legally, they can't say a damn thing. as long as you keep everything away from libel, you should be in the clear; if you can substantiate any of your accusations, you're golden...that includes scripture verses. what you're doing is dissenting, and last time i checked (hopefully, the first amendment still protects the freedom of speech: that includes all speech, (unfortunately) including 'hate' speech.
peace.
You owe it to the world and to Christendom to make these recordings available. Now. Bitch.
All those in favor of TBN expose say yeah
Yeah!!!!
woo-hoo!
uh-huh
Exposé, baby!
yesyesyesyes!
If you're interested in getting these guys, check out The Trinity Foundation. These guys are the original televangelist busters and have been doing exposes for years. (They're also the current owners of the (Wittenburg) Door magazine after Yaconelli and Rice sold it to them for $1 'cause they thought these guys would do the right stuff.)
Zeke, thanks for showing us the TBN site. They have free streaming video broadcast. Now i can watch all day long from my PC. I haven't seen any false teachers yet, just some Da Vinci Code stuff and a Christian-Oprah type show.
Under Australian law, I, as a broadcast journalist, can only broadcast a phone conversation, if the person on the other end knows they are being recorded.
(When doing a phone interview for news...I always start with 'ok...recording you now...')
Can't help you with American law.
Just ring the Program Director at a radio station in your area that puts prank phone calls to air, and get their opinion on what you're planning.
But if you are in any legal doubt, then the way to get around it ..is just transcribe the conversation, and re-enact it.
Nice, a reenactment would be awsome! I offer my services to play the part of a TBN phone fucker. I can talk a sthpir'tul. Bless you brother...
Share it with us and Ole over at The Trinity Foundation.
That bastard (Benny Hinn) deserves any bad press he gets.
This is very good on Hinn if you haven't seen it already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4t9APdSG30&search=benny%20hinn
I don't like your blog or agree with what you say or the way you say it.
Anyone else out there want to help me shut it down with a good old sustained DoS attack?
You are so up yourself. What's the difference between tacky, money-motivated Christianity and foul-mouthed, hate-motivated Christianity? Oh, yeh I think I spot the difference ... ones more popualr than yours. Now that's a shame isn't it.
Oops ... apologise for the tone of my last post! Whilst your 'righteous anger' might be directed at 'false prophets', mine gets provoked by Christians who set themselves up as arbitraters of 'false prophets' with no other qualification than their own opinions. Allow me to ask you a few questions ...
Always seems that the false prophets are the ones who become 'succesful' (except for Billy Graham of course - PBUH!). Are there any TV ministries/'mega-ministries' you do approve of or does the very fact that they become large meant they are in error?
Just what is it that makes your motives so right & pure, whilst TBN's are so wrong & impure?
Why are you wasting the precious time of the people on the 'prayer line' when both of you could be doing something infinitely more useful? WHen was the last time you got so indigant about some of the appalling stuff that's pumped out by regular TV ... especially the stuff that's peddled to the kids? Or is only SCP who get indignant about that stuff, whilst you would never want to be seen criticising anything that might lose you qudos with non-Christians?
Just wondering.
Just in case you think I've got some vested interest here, I haven't. I don't watch TBN (...not even got a TV), I don't like or approve of some of the stuff I have had chance to view, but by the same measure I have received some incredible encouragement & helpful teaching from some of the ministries that I know feature on TBN (I think it's called GOD TV here in the UK).
Sheildsy,
no balls to make your own blog yet you feel free to criticize those who do...interesting. Mr. Pot, this is Mr. Kettle.
Nothing to do with balls ... to do with time. Anyway, scared in case my blog becomes too popular or succesful, then I might end up as a 'mega' blog and incur the wrath of all the 'keeping it real' christians.
Haven't I seen you somewhere before?
Oooh ... bitchy! Yeh, that's me all right. That's why I can recognise the smell of crap so easily ... and there's plenty of it on here.
Christians using the F word and getting busy"pissing off prayer lines" ... is that the extent of radical Christianity in the states?
What is a "DoS attack"? Must mean "Dumbass on Steroids".
OK, enough of the playground exchange of insults.
You can all be very proud of yourselves. Seems like there's no difference between Christians and anyone else when it comes to defending a blog/ministry/message we feel an affiliation to. Especially when someone should dare and threaten to disrupt it in such a vitriolic way. Serious question ... do you not get any sense of irony or hypocrisy or is it a case of, "Oh it's different, coz we are right [or closer to the truth] and TBN et al are all wrong"? Do you not have even the slightest sense of 'planks & splinters'? Similary, all the questions in my 2nd post were serious questions.
Another serious question ... do you think that the people who are involved with TBN are your brothers & sisters in Christ or are they so off track that they couldn't possibly be? If it is the former then does the idea of trying to damage them, ".... them off" or call them the most base names not bother you at all? Is that how you speak to each other in your natural families?
If you are convinced that they complete retrobates and are serious about closing them down then you can learn a lot from the animal rights movement. Most of it is very close to the edge legally but they are incredibly effective. Comparing the tone of comment on here and on some of the animal rights sites I read there are a lot of similarities (no value judgement on that, just an observation).
My last post on the subject you'll be relieved to hear ;o)
Your mischaracterizations are laughable. If you've spent any time here at all, you certainly know that no one in this circle of friends claims to have it all figured out. But I don't have to be a veterinarian to recognize a pile of horseshit when I see it.
I don't speak for everyone, but I consider most of the TBN-types to be charlatans who have deluded themselves into believing that fleecing the flock is God's actual plan for them. Whether this delusion is the product of willful larceny or a natural consequence of massaging the gospel message into feel-good prosperity nonsense, I cannot say. But I have a tough time counting as my brother anyone who personally enriches him/herself on the backs of the poor, in the name of Jesus. That is exactly the opposite of Christ's message. "By their fruit..." is not a matter of planks and specks. It's about identifying wolves in sheep's clothing.
Beelzebub would be pleased. He loves Benny Hinn and the TBN crowd and their defenders
http://beelezeblog.typepad.com/my_weblog/
Everyone: Yeah we all got in a bit of a pissing match here... let's try and treat each other with respect and dignity. I think it's the least we can do... even if we disagree...
That being said... personally attacking each other is different than being indignant and frustrated with religiousity and piety encased in self-indulgence.
Shieldsy, maybe you've done the research and maybe you haven't, but I think if you read around the web about what is happening at TBN and the things that purport to go on there, and the way they and ministries that are aired on their satellites do "God's business" (the worst offender being the Crouch's and Benny Hinn) you might see a great reason why many of us get a little PO'd at them. More than that, I think it is not a matter of "planks in the eye"... I think we are called to "turn over the tables" in the temple with anger about gross misrepresentations of Christ.
And so you know, Josh and I live about 15 min from the world HQ of TBN and the opulence of that place and the way they flaunt the money they have is quite absurd.
Finally, a conversation I overheard recently with "non church going" co-workers regarding TBN was quite telling... they were talking about watching TBN and the way they were "begging" and "pleading" (their words) for money... and then looked at the TV set they were sitting on... with the large gold pillars, lavish furniture, etc... and they said that these guys just give "the Lord a bad damn name" (again their words). All I could do is sit there, listen and agree wholeheartedly.
Of course, I think I give the Lord a bad name sometimes too, but that's a whole 'nutha story!
Head on over to some of the sites below that have some reports from newspapers about TBN....
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/137/11.0.html
The site below has some referenced articles from the LA Times and other newspapers...
http://www.rickross.com/groups/tbn.html
Specifically these:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tbn/tbn19.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tbn/tbn21.html
And then there is Benny Hinn (of which his world HQ are about 20 min away from us - we know how to attract them)...
http://www.trinityfi.org/press/latimes02.html (a must read)
http://www.rickross.com/groups/bennyhinn.html
So in closing.... you may question Josh's language (to me a minor point) and his apparent anger (again I think justifiable to me - it's not like he walks around ranting about TBN all day)... but I cannot fault the focus of both of these attributes. And to say why he isn't angry about the rest of TV, or other things in the world... our blog is specifically about the stupidity we see in the church and church people (not about TV, politics or anything else - although we may occasionally touch on them)... and there is no greater evidence of stupidity in my opinion than TBN, Benny Hinn, the godhatesfags people and their kind.
Christians using the F-word...
What the fuck are you talking about Shieldsy?
[/deja vu]
I think it's "Bloody" in the U.K. isn't it? He probably hates Bono too.
If you want an excellent account of not just the Crouches and Benny Hinn, but also of other ministers--aka "stupid church people"--who've graced TBN's airwaves...
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com
Click on Articles. Both Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn are under "Word-Faith Movement", as is almost every preacher who's graced TBN's airwaves.
Oh God Brandon... not again!!! I guess if you hang around long enough it is bound to happen!
OK, enough of the playground exchange of insults.
I don't think this is your call, shieldsy (poopy pants!!)
After little debate, I figured I would say this.
I know of a guy who owns a clothing store. He is a businessman and does fashion design.
Mr Hinn contacts him. And asked him to make a suit, and on the suit in very small writing to have the words laced...Benny Hinn.
The cost you ask?
25,000 dollars.
What kinda of a buttknocker would spend that much of the "Lawrd's money" on a fucking suit?
Lance, thanks for that YouTube link to the CBC broadcast on Hinn. What a frickin' outrage.
i love me some spiritual masturbation from time to time.
I think the thing that hasn't bee said about these bastards at TBN is the human suffering they have caused. I have two friends who health problems who have been damaged by Benny Hinn. One has Muscular Distrophy. She goes to a Benny Hinn event here in Des Moines hoping to get healed...she leaves questioning her faith.
Another friend takes his wife who just had back surgery and suffers from a number of health issues hoping she will be healed. Instead a Benny Hinn employee who looked like Tony Saprano yanks her out of her wheelchair to "heal" her, only to risk permanent damage to her recently operated on back. She leaves in pain and questioning her faith.
At least the moneychangers in the Temple left people feeling like they at least had a good sacrifice to offer God. These people at TBN have the same greed with the additional shame of leaving people hurt, broken, and out a generous donation to little more than a swindler.
There has to be a special place in hell for people like Benny Hinn. I hope he throws himself at the feet of Jesus before it's too late.
I don't understand people who get mad at the man who cons their grandmother out of her life savings. You people act like no one has a choice but to watch TBN and run to Benny Hinn for healing. Do you really think Benny Hinn is going to hell for his actions? If he is I guess we are all to foours. What's really odd is how you sit around bashing people For their efforts (good or bad) yet you don't bash the real culprits. The people who know the truth and choose not tell those around them. The beauty of the Gospel is freedom. Glad you found a piss and moan party to hang out at. You wanna do something Josh. Quit spendin' your time gettin' drunk and jerkin' off, and go get people saved. Work some miracles. Prove you know the God you have so many opinions about. The real problen with TBN is that they don't really do a thing for God. Now maybe you can explain how your different. If you believe in Jesus Go do what he did. (shhhhhh he said you could ya know)
eh, hum:
From the Blog Etiquette section:
1. Each blog you visit is the internet "home" of someone.
You wouldn't dare walk into a home and run your mouth at the host. It's inappropriate to do on blogs as well. It's just ugly and you end up looking stupid. Don't do it. It's immature.
2. Any attack on a blog is a public attack.
It's one thing to debate a friend in college where it's you two in a room or sitting out on the grass with no one else around. Imagine if you took some of those debates and broadcasted them to every dorm room on campus. Yeah. Be aware of what you say. You can look stupid, no matter how 'valid' your point may be.
Example: "He must a Word-of-Faith ass-clown, he's from Tulsa". Aren't all Christians from Tulsa Word-of-Faith?
eh, hum
From the Blog Etiquite section:
7. A challenge to your idea is not an attack on you personally. You as the "poster" have to differentiate. It goes both ways. If you feel like your idea is being challenged it is easy to take that personally. I know...trust me. However, I have been guilty of responding as if the person meant their comments towards me personally. It is hard to read voice inflection, etc in comments, so take it all with a grain of salt. This blogging and commenting is great for developing thick skin.
A personal attack would be like, calling someone an ass clown. Disagreements are only personal to the immature. As I am sure Josh is a mature adult I would guess he doesn't take what I said as a personal attack just because I responded directly to the source of the article. But if you find it necessary to correct me anymore, my name is Marc. So it would be "Marc, The Ass Clown".
Oh yeah, just because you can use profanity and not go to hell doesn't mean you should. It is kinda rude and vulgar. I am sure you were taught better than that growing up. It really is a lower form of communication.
Dear thedavidsoftulsa (Mark),
Thanks for finding your way to my blog. I rarely respond to people when they leave comments, so you should find this an honor. Thank you for pretending to know me and my heart. With your knowledge of my life you should feel free to speak "the truth" you love to preach. And when it comes to profanity ... I choose the lower road.
Thank you, I am honored. As I do not want to be "that guy" I would like to appologize if I have offended anyone. It is true that I don't know you. I did think though the point of our blogs is to express our hearts. If what we say does not show our hearts what does? I would only hope that you can clearly see my heart in what I say. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know. I do know that I am intitled to my opinion. Regardless, if you would prefer I no longer leave comments on you blog just drop me a note and let me know. Thanks
TulsaBoy...(a paraphrase of your earlier post - SCP version)
I don't understand people who get mad at a man who is forthright and honest with what they are feeling in regards to injustices they percieve from the religious hypocrites of their day. You act like no one has the choice or not to read this blog and criticize Josh for his opinions. Do you really think Josh Sager has to prove his faith to you? If he does or doesn't know God, how is anyone to really know but God himself (and the same goes for you and I). What's really odd is how you sit around bashing people for their efforts (good or bad) yet you don't bash any of the real culprits. The people who think they know the truth and insist on shoving it down the throats of everyone they meet and encounter as they go door to door witnessing. The people that want to "go get people saved", and see their churches grow larger because it strokes their own egos. The beauty of the Gospel is freedom. Glad you found the freedom to judge and be condescending here, because we invite all stupid church people to hang out. You wanna do something TulsaBoy. Quit spending your time trying to save people, spoutin' scripture and going to church every time the door opens (which is the equivalent of religious masturbation) and just accept people for where they are in life and get to know them in the midst of their story. Don't try and work miracles because spiritually mature people understand only God does that stuff. Prove you know the God you preach about all the time by truly loving others. The real problem with stupid church people is that they don't really do a thing for God... they just stay real busy acting like it to make themselves feel better. Now maybe you can explain how you are different. If you believe in Jesus go do what he did...although as a typical hypocrite and pharisee of your day you equate "doing" Christ-like stuff with "being" Christ-like... and that's not even what Jesus taught.. ya know!
Tulsaboy,
I believe there are two things that make me feel good about criticizing bastards like Benny Hinn:
1. It was one of Jesus' primary complaints: religious leaders who preyed on the weak and the gullible. I wish I had a $1 for every time Jesus probably said something negative about the Pharisees during His lifetime.
2. James 3:1 says that teachers will be held to a higher standard...damn. I'd hate to be Benny Hinn or any number of TBN fruitcakes on that day when they are held to account for their false teaching and greed.
Steve,
You crack me up...I wish I had half the wit some of you guys have...
Give 'em hell, Josh. Some of them should probably start getting used to it.
You guys act like Jesus was against organized religion, and that is simply not the case. He was a Jew, He preached in the synagoge, and he even said he came to build on the law (not to destroy it). You speak in relative ideology. As if to say know one "really" knows the truth, you can't judge my path. We are all on our own journey. That is simply a cop out. Yes, it is true that I have a choice to read and comment on this blog, but I am not blaming you for making me do it. You say a mature christian realizes that "being" christ-like doesn't mean "doing" what Christ did. Well, what the flip does it mean then. I guess when Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" he really meant, "I don't "do" anything that God does because if I did I wouldn't be like Him." I am wildly curious what you think we should do with our lives. Apparently, it's not to act like Christ. You have criticized me for "personal" attacks. You called me a hypocrite and a modern day pharisee because I believe we should actually attempt to share our faith. And then you say I just think I am doing something for God all the while staying busy to make myself feel better. How would you know? Don't hammer me about making assumtions about people you know, CaliforniaBoy, and then qualify your argument by making assumptions about me. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. I have been all over the world, and I have seen miracles greater that that of the Bible. I have worked these miracles with my own hands and so have countless people I have worked with. I have seen the miracle that is the local church. That is why I have not given up hope in it. Just because you have had some bad experiences in your little church bubble, the whole world is supposed to chalk up the church to another bad idea. All organizations have problems. What good can it possibly do hate TBN? (I'm not sure of you stance on hate, Jesus did "say" not to do it and he did't actually "do" it so it's probably ok) You even said this was a "turn over the tables type situation". So you think we should "do" something Christ did. No you couldn't be saying that it wouldn't be mature. Well, I guess when it comes to that I choose the lower road.....know what I mean Josh.
So...
you have performed and seen miracles greater than that which where in the Bible.
WOW. I did not realize who we had in our presence.
OK.
YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!
I know you will not understand it. You will think I am shallow. Well, fuck you ... you fucking prick. (the low road)
Mark, you are SO stupid. You just might be the Stupid Church Person of the month. WOW.
WOW. WOW. WOW.
FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK YYYYYYYOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tulsa...
First off... learn to use a paragraph. It's an amazing literary tool used in writing. It pained me to paraphrase your last comment for that reason.
Secondly... A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Wow... I know you didn't think of that all by yourself. Someone got themself a quote book for Christmas. Share your source for your obvious one-liners or at least say something like "someone once said"... don't try and grab the credit for yourself.
Thirdly... I never criticized you for personal attacks. Yet I did call you a hypocrite and a modern day Pharisee... why... not for trying to share your faith (is that what you call it when you berate someone like you did Josh - would your church say that is sharing your faith?). No, I called you those things becuase "you equate "doing" Christ-like stuff with "being" Christ-like. There's a difference and I will explain it if you need me to...
I didn't say a mature christian realizes that "being" christ-like doesn't mean "doing" what Christ did. I said you EQUATE doing with being. Again there is a difference.
Fourth... I didn't make assumptions about you specifically by saying you stay busy for God to make yourself feel better. I made assumptions about many church people I know (and myself in the past)... re-read my comment. But if you took that statement to heart maybe its something to think about.
Fifth... (somewhat like the fourth)... do you think there is no ego involved in this statement.... I have been all over the world, and I have seen miracles greater that that of the Bible. I have worked these miracles with my own hands... You have... Red Sea parting type miracles?? Water in to wine type miracles?? PIllars of fire?? Lazarus raised from the dead type stuff?? Please do tell and please do document with credible independant sources. Maybe with this revelation I will start calling you TulsaJesus.
Sixth... I haven't given up on the church. I just don't attend a local 401c3 body that meets on Sundays. And I didn't say everyone should do what I do... for some it works but for others it doesn't. I do think some people need to take a break from time to time... and from the sounds of things you might need at least a couple of Sundays off before you pop a spring.
Seventh... we are all on our own journey. That's a truth. My journey isn't your journey. I am not telling you to stop going to church and follow my path, but you insist that Josh and I making a choice to not attend church is a lesser path than the one you have chosen... at least it sounds that way. You speak in absolute ideology.... and I am not saying there are not absolutes... but I don't think people's lives are as black and white as you want them to be.
Finally... you ask the questions...in essence... "What does it mean to be a mature Christian?" and "What should we do with our lives?"
Simple. To the first question...Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
To the second question... Jesus was asked what it was that we should be doing to do the work God requires... and his answer: "Believe on the one he has sent."
I appreciate the banter Marc. Keep it coming... I think it's good to talk things through, don't you? Come to an understanding of other people... get to know them and their thought processes....I hope we can continue. Take care....
Oh and the "CaliforniaBoy" comment... now that was a snappy comeback! :-) LOL
501c3 Steve, 501c3. :)
I'll bet Marc has read pile of books from either John Graham Lake Sermons on Dominion Over Demons, Disease, and Death,Apostle to Africa, etc., The Bosworth's Christ the Healer, T.J. McCroassan Bodily Healing in the Atonement, Hagin, Copeland, Hickey, Osborns, Summerall, Oral Roberts, etc. or the modern dude that he refernces on the Reading Section of his Blog.
Marc, in reference to Church History, who was Montanus? Do you know the "roots" of where much of what you say comes from? The "problem" is not our lack of faith Marc, it's our understanding the scriptures.
Please provide documented medical evidence of your miracles and proof that it was your faith or obedience that wrought them, or prompted Jesus Christ to work.
Thanks Nonotone... yeah what a slip... 401k is for making money and 501c3 is for taking money.... I get the two confused sometimes.
I guess I disagree on many of the foundational ideas that we have thrown back and forth. I will say that I have enjoyed the banter quite a bit. So for now I have decided to agree with you guys. Unless, of course, that no longer allows me to be the Stupid Church Person Of the Month. Thanks Josh I accept my title humbly and graciously. Nonotone, church history, what in the world are you talking about? I love you guys, really I do. Not in a Jesus way. In a total guy on guy way, arched backed, pillow biting way, and I can only pray that you think of me the same.
That's a good boy... you go ahead take your ball and go on home....
I guess I disagree on many of the foundational ideas that we have thrown back and forth.....So for now I have decided to agree with you guys.
Wow....
Either you realize how assanine your statement was about have seen miracles greater that that of the Bible. I have worked these miracles with my own hands and you have agreed to back off or back down...
Or....
You are just one of those people who can't ever admit they are truly wrong (i.e. ego problem) and so you play it off like you are too good or too smart to deal with my comments... in essence you dismiss me in a condescending way.
So which is it?
Steve,
You commented,"I didn't say a mature christian realizes that "being" christ-like doesn't mean "doing" what Christ did. I said you EQUATE doing with being. Again there is a difference."
Well, what is it. I don't see the difference. This a perfect example of how you base your points on foundationless ideas. Argue the point don't just state how superior your idea is. It's like fighting the fossil record.
You said, " Finally... you ask the questions...in essence... "What does it mean to be a mature Christian?" and "What should we do with our lives?"
Simple. To the first question...Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
To the second question... Jesus was asked what it was that we should be doing to do the work God requires... and his answer: "Believe on the one he has sent."
You really pulled a lot out of a couple scattered verses there. Every point you make here has been pulled from a very loose interpretation of scripture. Jesus did give us two commandments, but in no way did he project an idea that following these commandments "eguated" spiritual maturity. So please explain how you came up with that idea. Also, your answer to "question 2", that passage translates a lot better when you read it than it does when you just remember the way someone used it in sermon last year at Saddle Back.
So what is wrong with a comment stating I have seen greater miracles than in the bible. Didn't Jesus say that we would? You seem to mistake confidence for pride or ego. I have never parted the sea, but then again I have never been in a situation where it was necessary.
You mock miracles...that is funny, because my bible has many faith healers in it, but I guess that was for them and not us.
I have no idea why you assume that I go to church or that I follow every "Word of Faith" spokesperson in the America. Have I said anything to project that? It is not the message that is wrong it is how they use it.
So you are wondering if I am having a hard time dealing with your amazingly witty comments. No. I will agree that they are occasionally witty, but that's all they are. My question is, are you one of those people that can never admit that they are wrong.
p.s. How do you know if I "in essence" had any intention of being condescending. You need to read rule #7 again.
Marc... Let's start with something direct and simple... and then go from there with the rest of your comment to me:
Point me to your miracles... what have you done that is greater than the Bible.... you said it I didn't.
I don't mock miracles... I just think God doesn't normally operate that way in the world today, not that he can't, just that he doesn't. If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be willing to listen. Since these are your experiences and miracles with your own hands, I just wanted you to back up your claims. I haven't seen any verifiable evidence of your specific claims.
I can show you video if you want. I can't see how that is going to change your mind. I guess you want me to travel with a certified physician while working miracles on the street.
Miracles greater than the bible means in quantity not quality. The miracles of Jesus' time were limited to a certain group of people.
You said, "I don't mock miracles... I just think God doesn't normally operate that way in the world today, not that he can't, just that he doesn't."
Maybe you can explain your theological concept of God changing.It only worked in the early church,huh. Can you back that up with the bible or is it just your limited personal experiences you rely upon. Why would he do things different today? I can't believe you honestly believe that.
If you are so insistent on proof you can look at this video there is a great miracle on it.
My sister actually works the miracle in this one. This kid has a fractured knee it was swollen about two to three times it's normal size and he was healed right on the street. Because of that incident. This video should end the miracle conversation with any hope. I am sure you will let me know.
I will appologize for making you endure the whole video. It was designed for members of the team to be able to show their friends and family, not as evidence. For all practical purposes it will do the job though.
http://www.chaptertwentynine.org/ch29downloads/dominican_republic_dr05.wmv
Hugs and Kisses,
Marc
You made this statement... I have never parted the sea, but then again I have never been in a situation where it was necessary. and then modified with this statment Miracles greater than the bible means in quantity not quality. I think you might have realized you overstated your case... and I have said I just don't think God normally operates using miracles, but that he can and might choose to to accomplish his purposes - not to line the pockets of preachers. You are obviously not making millions off of your work (unlike Benny Hinn - so I don't want to insinuate that) or that your motives are impure towards the people in the video.... towards me maybe but not them. :-)
Your miracles are of the same variety as Benny Hinn (meaning in type and scope - and unverifiable - yes an independent medical doctor - non-believer - traveling with you might be a good idea - to prove your claims). Having a Dr xray the knee before and show the break and then xray the knee afterward and show the healing of the knee... that would be verifiable and documented proof.
You no doubt have seen the television shows debunking Hinn and his miracles... and my questions are the same as those raised in this TV special.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4t9APdSG30&search=benny%20hinn
You are going to impoverished nations serving others... I assume your work includes more than these miracles, but also serving the physical needs of the people. Explain some of that part of your work. I am interested and not being facititious whatsoever. That part of your work interests me more than your miracles... because I think sticking with the people, meeting there long-term needs should be as much a part of your outreach as the miraculous short-term "getting people saved". You would agree this isn't just about putting notches on your ministry belt... correct?
Marc,
I think it's wonderful that you and yours took the time, money, effort, sweat, risk, etc. to go to the Dominican and minister to these folks. Honestly, I can't really tell if the swollen knee was truly a "healing" or not. I'm not saying that it was not, I just can't tell from the video. I quess the question I have is where do these folks go from here? Are they being taught the Scriptures from someone who is qualified to present the whole counsel of God and has some degree of credibility and traning? The substance of knowing the Jesus Christ presented in the Bible is much more than a belief in and presentation of experiences and (apparent) miracles, or a simplistic reading of the Gospel and Acts texts that speak of the miraculous. As an example of one such seasoned Bible teacher, check out:
http://www.covprespca.org/missions/mission_friends/robertson.html.
BTW - Montanus is a prominent figure in Church History from the middle 2nd Centruy A.D. He was prototypial of many modern Pentecostal/Charismatics and was basically branded a heretic. You can learn more about him at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism.
Peace in Christ!
hey, My name is Will and I'm a long-time reader, first-time poster.
Despite all of the crazy shit that TBN does to wound people and take their money and make them question their faith, I don't think the answer is in fucking with a bunch of prayer-line attendees. They are as mixed-up as those who tune in each week to be led astray.
Do I have a better idea? Not really, but I don't think that causing others pain is the answer. I do think informing the masses and showing them a freedom unprecedented in their lives is a better way. And telling people 'Man, that TBN shit is fucked up' is a great place to start.
As a sidenote on the miracles thing: 'I believe and have seen the truth of healing miracles. When God allows them, it brings joy to my heart. It doesn't always happen. That's a given.
And the important thing to remember is that because God has blessed you with being part of his healing process does not make you any more spiritual/holy/right than anyone else.
I have seen people who have witnessed and performed miracles eventually become people who have thrown their children out on the street and proceed stop their children's weddings, later on in life.
Where am I going with this? Not sure, just ranting, I guess. I just read 60 comments and felt like throwing in my 2 cents.
Thanks Josh for your honesty and thanks Steve for your constant want for clarity and truth.
... now, for the real Benny Hinn
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I believe a church's purpose should be to serve the community it represents. That is what I try to get acroos to the pastors and churches I get the opportunity to work with. You see, there is nothing I can do long term with these people, but there is tons that pastors and churches can do. So it is our goal to help equip and train them for the long run. Wecwant to invest in the church so the church invests in it's people.
My biggest gripe with the church as a whole is that they leave this job to a few guys like myself and some people I work with. There are legitiment local churches out there that are pure and sincere. They need us, and they are making a difference.
The honest truth is that I have not attended a church with any consistancy in 6 years. I still consider myself in a flowing, vibrant, active relationship with God. I have been actracted to this site, Steve, because I identify so well with your point of veiw on so many subjects.
Bottom line, the work that I am doing is long -term. It is pain staking. It is the christianity that I always knew could be, but never found in a building.
You are right about one thing, we aren't making millions. Most of the time it costs us money out of our checking accounts to go and do what God has told His people to do.
I have to say I love every second of it.
I don't know how most "ministers" do what they do for so many years without real honest life changing moments. So many times I find myself in a situation and I cry because I think that if I would not have cared then nobody would have. That makes me think of the countless out there that need us and there is just not enough caring people to go around.
If I had it my way I would Feed every child, hold every widowed woman, and be a father to every orphan. We are doing as much as we can and we will only continue to do more because that is our passion.
It is hard to accept this reality, but it is true: without the local church I can not have any real longevity.
That is how I see it. I would really appreciate your opinion on this idea( I am not being facititious either I would really like to hear your thoughts on this).
Here's a really good exposé on Benny Hinn's false doctrine (it also exposes a number of errors in the extremes of the Pentecostal/Charismatic world).
Okay All,
After reading all of the comments presented on this subject, I would just like to make a brief comment.
I just find it interesting that:
1) you really think your only purpose is to "Believe on the one He has sent." My question is how is is that YOU cam to believe on Him that was sent? I would venture to say that someone took the time to explain to you the Gospel story of Jesus Christ. So were just suppoed to know the pertinent information that keeps people from dieing and going to hell and not share it? That seems a bit strange. If everyone that knew the information after Jesus left never told anyone - just believed it for themselves, well then those 120 people mentioned at the day of penticost in the Bible would have died and all the rest of us would have went to hell. Pretty interesting we don't bash Paul who basicall wrote most of the New Testament and spent most of his time preaching the Gospel and ministering to ---CHURCHES!!!. Woah he must have been a really bad guy huh following your thoughts.
2) that you all actually have a problem with people attempting to reach the world through the TV. What the heck are you doing even in your own neighborhood to reach people who may be on a road to hell. There are countless stories of people who have been saved and ministerd through thses TBN showes you all like to bash.
I may not agree with all of them and the way they handle themselves, but if one person is reached because if it - well its more than your doing.
Just a thought. At least "Tulsaboy" is trying to do his part - what the heck are you doing besides complaining?
God shefrog77 ...
At least stupidchurchpeople.com is trying to do their part - what the heck are you doing besides complaining?
Josh,
Interesting you would say that your website is doing "their part". Exactly what are we talking about? What part are you doing? I suppose if "their part" is complaining about TBN and trying to find a way to bring them down is the part your talking about ...fine. I'm sure when we all stand before God and He asks what you have dont for Him - He will be verry happy to know that this was your focus.
Well I personally know at least two people whose souls have been saved due stupidchurchpeople.com
Shefrog...
The salvation story??
Do you preach salvation by grace (being, believing) or salvation by works (doing, trying)?
The point here is - go to church or not - The purpose of our existance is take the truth we know about Jesus - Based on your "What we believe" we agree that Jesus is the way to heaven. All the other stuff is just an outlet to speak to people. Show a man God is real by working a miracle, and this person will believe in a real existing God that loves him.
So people are corrupt, that hasn't changed in history. People in the church are corrupt, that hasn't changed nor will it. We can spend our time worring about those people - or we can spend our time reaching out to the people in our lives. The gospel is what it is. The gospel produces results - salvation, freedom, and yes miracles. We are here for a short time. The object is to take as many people as possible to heaven - why? Because if we don't they will go to hell. For the love of God people, reality check time! Who cares about those people?
This is not an issue of religion. Salvation is by grace and grace alone.
However, we cannot discount that it is the responsibility of believers to reach out to others. You will not lose you salvation if you don't.
This is a compassion issue, not a works issue
Sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to address thedavidoftulsa...
Thanks for posting the video. When I read the gospels, I see Jesus teaching and performing miracles. Yet, whenever we say we want to be like Christ, we only talk about social injustice and loving the poor.
What you're doing looks more to me like Christ than blog-speak or BennyHinn.
Just lose the camera. If your miracles are real, remember that Jesus didn't broadcast his works like you are doing. He said "don't tell anyone".
I suggest you do the same!
shefrog77--perhaps you should be out witnessing to more people and performing more miracles, and less time complaining about how people run their blogs and being the Internet Morality Police.
Shefrog... are you suggesting that Josh and I don't reach out to others? That we don't have compassion for others?
Why would you think that? What has caused you to think we don't serve, love and care for others??
Jeff... quit posting so we can freakin podcast...
I can't judge your compassion or reaching out to others. I don't know you any more than you know me.
I can say this. You pretend to be different than the people you mock. These people on TBN or any station for that matter are following what they feel is their "Journey", and your following yours. Religion in any capasity is wrong. So you all don't go to church, okay big deal. The only thing that truely matters is are you reaching people. Are you leading others into a relationship with Christ or not. Only you know for sure. If we truley loved out neighbor as ourselves - we would treat them like ourselves and make sure they know there is a way to not go to hell, feed them when they were hungry, cloth them when they need it. If were doing these things then nothing else really matters.
My point is not to say you are or are not doing these things, only you and God know.
My point is not to say you are or are not doing these things, only you and God know.
Melissa, if this is your point, why are you even posting? Why not just pray for all these heathens and leave them alone?
You say you cannot judge Steve & Josh's compassion, but isn't that exactly what you're doing when you say "What the heck are you doing even in your own neighborhood to reach people who may be on a road to hell."
Peronally, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. If our 'gospel' is so wonderful, we SHOULD share it. The problem I have with you is the fact that you're judging people you've never met all-the-while cloaking it in bible-speak and false-compassion.
If you really want to influence Steve, Josh or anyone else, try getting to know them a little. You just might learn something... and maybe even share some ideas too. But I'll warn you. This is not a safe haven like your little church is.
Is your faith strong enough to withstand some dissenting opinions? I guess we'll see...
Well then, you take a long time to get around to the point, and make a lot of asinine assumptions and judgement calls along the way.
That last remark was for shefrogg77, btw, not you Jeff. We must have posted at the same time.
And Jeff, I'd just like to take this time to thank you, and everyone else, who writes thoughtful posts that are relatively free from grammatical and spelling errors.
you're right, nun! How can we 'reach the lost' if our gramer, speling and sintacks is rong?
And how can we "reach the lost" if we spend so much time preaching at people and seeing them as "projects" (which they can smell from a mile away) instead of getting to know them and loving them for who they are?
By the way, I changed my doll's pants, you perv! ;)
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Perv? I'm not the one flashing my trash all over the internet, you avatar-ho...
:-)
The only thing that truely matters is are you reaching people. Are you leading others into a relationship with Christ or not.
Is that the only thing that truly matters? As I recall, that wasn't even one of the factors that distinguished the sheep from the goats in Matt 25. Wasn't Jesus' greatest commandment. Wasn't what he criticized the Pharisees for.
And Ninjanun is absolutely right about the great unwashed masses being able to "smell" witnessing a mile away. Christian witnessing--especially the formulized, programmatic varieties--has become a laughing stock. People need our love, not our absolutist pronouncements.
One of my favorite stories was from Friendships, a ministry that sends shipfuls of aid to hurting areas of the world. They told the story about how near their distribution center was a Buddhist temple. The Christians prayed regularly amongst themselves to save the heathen Buddhists ("Use us, Lord!"). Out of the blue, one of the Buddhists started showing up and quietly helping around the facility doing menial work. Blessing the Christians by following her faith. At that point they realized that while they were praying to "save the souls" of those lost Buddhists, one of them started acting out Jesus' greatest commandment.