484 Days, 9 Hours, 28 Minutes and 43 Seconds
"Did you feel the mountains tremble?
Did you hear the oceans roar?
When Josh Sager went back to church?"
It has been awhile since I attended a church. Today my wife and I went to church with her mom. Just like all the other pagans who only attend on Easter wearer their pastels. It was ok. The worship leader thought he was elvis costello and another guy in the band loved the shaker way too much. It was weird to sit there.
I have not been around fake people ... I mean christians for awhile. I was a little uncomfortable and won't be back next week. Maybe someday soon I can manage to attend church weekly. Not yet.
Oh yea .......... I didn't win a car. Damn.
Did you hear the oceans roar?
When Josh Sager went back to church?"
It has been awhile since I attended a church. Today my wife and I went to church with her mom. Just like all the other pagans who only attend on Easter wearer their pastels. It was ok. The worship leader thought he was elvis costello and another guy in the band loved the shaker way too much. It was weird to sit there.
I have not been around fake people ... I mean christians for awhile. I was a little uncomfortable and won't be back next week. Maybe someday soon I can manage to attend church weekly. Not yet.
Oh yea .......... I didn't win a car. Damn.
posted by Joshua Sager at
8:25 PM
19 Comments:
Hi!
I went to the zoo instead on Sunday...bad I know...but I did go to a Good Friday service....which was..nice...a bit alien for me.
I have a new blog now:
http://brandnamefaith.wordpress.com
This was my second easter spent sleeping in, driving around and taking the dog on a long, meandering walk. At some point, I stopped by the store for coffee and was reminded of what I was missing by all the pastel-encrusted last-minute-chocolate-bunny-buying families packed in the isles. I do miss the great people from the last church I went to before I couldn't stomach it anymore, but not much else.
I am the only person I know who left church less because of SCP than begining to disbelieve the premise of it all. (Although stupid, stupid people never hurt the process.) But I've been reading your blog with much (often silent) appreciation. Thanks.
I can relate to the cringe of returning to what seems now a foreign experience. Steve mentioned on the podcast that he didn't want the confrontation, something that was weighing on me during a recent visit. It only reinforced just what I don't enjoy about church - recycled songs and boring sermons. At one stage I pulled out a book to read instead. Oh, how life has changed on the other side....
Why don't you come by and check out "Revolution" bro?
I know Long Beach is a little scarry for you pampered Orange County folk, but hey...you could pretend to be one of the kids and win a Wii...(obviously the Scion is no match for your dope Focus...hey I can talk shit...I've got one too...only I've got the bling rims!!!)
I really think we ALL need to loosen up a little about the whole church thing. It seems to me that people who are so passionate about what the church is doing wrong would have some...any kind of insights on what a "good" or at the very least "better" church might look like. So far, it seems like everyones version is met with some kind of criticism or fault by the mighty SCP nation...
I just don't get why you guys even bother? I mean if you don't give a shit about the church...than fuck 'em! And mind you, I'm not saying this from some kind of lame-ass defensive stance. I just don't get it! It's like you're standing infront of the hotplate in your kitchen...you know it's on because it's red hot...you stand around it for a while and talk copious amounts of shit about it, then ever so often you stick your finger on it, and wonder why that hurt so much. But instead of moving on, you just go right back to bitching about it, and eventually touching it again!!!
You really gotta help me bro, I DON'T GET IT!!
It's for the same reason you say you don't get it... and then continue to come here and comment.
So maybe you do get it.
steve - I'm not mad at you guys, nor do I find myself contributing simply to argue or piss people off. I am genuinely interrested in your (and those of the SCP peeps) views. Though they differ from mine from time to time, that doesn't mean I might not be able to learn something, or (God forbid...) vice versa.
To be honest, your answer is a bit criptic, if not vague. I think my questions are pretty honest and fair. But hey, we're all on this journey together, ney?
This may not be what you want to hear, but in a strange kind of way, I consider this "wacky" bunch of people like my second church. I mean, we are a gathering (loosley termed) of believers (more or less) striving to better understand...what it all means. Therefore I have a genuine interrest in better understanding those with whom I share fellowship. Like it or not...you're still a pastor bro. Maybe minus the lights, backup singers and pulpit, but there you have it. Good on ya...
In response to your question, I just don't get why you guys even bother?, I wrote:
It's for the same reason you say you don't get it... and then continue to come here and comment.
We continue to bitch about the church for the same reason you bitch about us bitching. You could move on, but you don't.
Let me talk in terms you can possibly understand. I have a calling. My calling is to hold the church's collective feet to that shitty hotplate of yours and point out the idiocies contained within. It's really nothing more and nothing less than that.
Like your lame-ass church's idea about the car giveaway. It's stupid in principle and in action... it's oh so overplayed. It's been done... and I was doing it in the 80's. Instead of Wii's we gave away Sony Walkmans for pack-a-pew night.
So to answer your question further... why do I do this? Because I love it first of all and secondly because it really, really needs to be done...
I think it was Jesus who said, "The stupid, we will always have with us".
Your point has been well made, though I don't feel like the tone was entirely merited...but hey, your the boss!
I guess it's hard for me to grasp the dichotomy that you've created. You feel compelled to hold the church accountable, and yet you do not really seem interrested as to whether or not those changes ever take place. I deduce this by the fact that you rarely-if ever-have anything positive to say about the church. In fact, more often than not, you come across as not caring at all. And yet what a mighty roar you make when it strays from the path according to...you!
It's almost as if you were applying the methodologies of an anarchist: tear away at all the faults of the system, but never be willing to contribute anything towards positive change.
Look, you guys are like some kind of sick crack for me. I keep coming back because I'm facinated, and because for me SCP helps keep me balanced.
So in the end, think of me as the karmic answer to what you do...I don't even really know what that means, it just sounded really cool!
Josh, when you make a statement like "I have not been around fake people ... I mean christians for awhile." why would even want to go back? Reading that last paragraph I kinda have the same reaction that lowendaction has. Why even bother?
Lowend... you and I differ on our definitions of anarchy. Actually, anarchy isn't a bad thing by definition. I kind of like that you put us in that category. Thanks.
"Never willing to contribute anything towards positive change"... I find it interesting that you don't think that for me to have created an environment where people who are struggling gather together to share and dialogue about these very issues is not positive.
It's really rather simple... SCP was meant to be a place where we laugh at ourselves as church people, where we allow people who have been hurt by the church to find a voice, where we want to point out the stupid things the church does (shoot sacred cows), and where we can challenge the status quo. Beyond that, we really don't need to do anything else...
You'd have us do what... what... please tell me?? Organize a symposium to discuss these things? Maybe start a movement and organize and rally others like ourselves to promote change? Start my own church where we do it differently than all the rest and show people how to do it...be a model for others to follow....??
Evidently I DO CARE about the church... because when I see stupid things that bug me I talk about it. Hence the name of the site. Just the fact that I say something means I care. As far as change goes... I will leave it to those better qualified than me. People like you for instance. :-)
Tony... nice tan. Not bad for a Minnesota tan.
Steve,
Sadly, that tan is long gone......
steve - I'd love to hear what your definition of an anarchist is, because according to my buddy webster, it's a little something like this:
"a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed."
Though I do not think, nor have I read, that violence is your M.O., I have a really hard time fitting this into God's design for a relationship with him:
anarchy: "Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose."
But enough of this silly banter. As I've mentioned before, I wholeheatedly applaud your efforts at illuminating the churches dark slimy underbelly. And though I don't expect you to run into the streets waving 10lb King James' at the heathens, I do think it would be benificial to all if you might occasionally show that there are SOME christians who haven't completely jumped the tracks.
That all I've got. I'm sure you're wearry of explaining yourslef to the likes of me, and I do really appreciate the time you have expended on me.
For something different, but strangely related, mosey on over to my sad little hood, where up until now I've only put silly vids...I really had some pretty amazing revelations at a little get-together last night, and I'm going to try and formulate this in words (always scary!!). I'd love to get you unique take on this new discovery...
spasiland.com
thanx brother
My friend Lowend... Just like your Bible you pick and choose from your dictionary. The definition you chose is but one of the definitions of an anarchist (found on dictionary.com)... however the first one is simplya person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
So lets look at anarchy - you can choose from four definitions...
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder:
And look at your church's name "Revolution". Look that up will ya... the words used are "an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed." and "a radical and pervasive change in society and the social structure, esp. one made suddenly and often accompanied by violence" oooohhhh... there's that word... a revolution sounds a lot like anarchy to me.
I have advocated that what the church needs isn't a "revolution"... that's possibly not enough... we need a cataclysm (defined as a violent upheaval or change). Now by violent do I mean rocks, fists or guns? Only in some instances... just kidding. But seriously, we need a violent as in drastic, strong and determined statement.
As for anarchy... I think the definition applies (specifically number 3). I think that's what the church was supposed to be (the people not paid staff) and in many ways isnt that what Jesus did... a little anarchy to the religious system of his day. And he taught a new way... love not rules, grace not condemnation...and that we were all our own priests and didn't need them anymore to talk to God.
And as for showing Christians that make a difference and aren't nuts... I think I do that... or do you just not read the posts where I do. Strangely enough you didn't comment on my post "Feed 'Em Dummies" or give that much play... but prefer to simply categorize me as a church hater... and in that post I advocate giving money to a church where there is a minstry making a difference in the lives of people less fortunate. But forgive me... now I sound like your Pastor pointing to all the wonderful things he does. Forgive me...
But unlike your pastor... I have chosen to converse with you here. Even when the people I am talking to don't always agree with me. Strangely he is silent towards SCP. Oh I am sure he might be out amongst the other dissenting sites really stirring it up in the conversation and dialogue. But I doubt it. Of course that's not what he gets paid to do. But wait... neither do I. You see some of us really want a conversation, and others just pay lip service to it... they want controlled conversations...mainly where they do the controlling. Yeah... pastors like yours are real revolutionaries. ;-)
"You see some of us really want a conversation, and others just pay lip service to it... they want controlled conversations...mainly where they do the controlling."
Steve, isn't this what Josh is doing here with his blog. He can post some pretty opinionated stuff here, like the shit above this post. People comment and nothing from Josh. You're here debating. Where's Josh? Where's the conversation?
Am I my Josh's keeper?
But seriously... some things are worthy of a conversation and some things aren't. I can't speak for Josh, but sometimes as a blog writer, I will post what I post and that in and of itself is what I think.
I used to have a steadfast policy of not commenting on my own posts because then I constantly feel like I am having to defend what I said and excuse what I said just to make everyone happy. Sometimes I post things that I feel deeply at the time that I write them and they strike a chord with people and the conversation happens without me... and that's just fine.
And in defense of Pastor Trotter (he of the Revolution Church and the infamous car-giveaway)... he doesn't owe me a damn thing. He doesn't have to even defend himself (nor did he) or his actions... to me his car give away was stupid but he doesn't really owe me or anyone else an explanation or defense. I'd like to dialogue with him but it's no big deal... so therefore I am left to surmise. He did what he did and he's moving on... if we want to talk about it that's fine. He doesn't really care either way. Trust me, I can understand that.
And as for the video above... see my comment above.
Why even bother? (Backendaction/tony)
I went to church because my mother-in-law and my wife wanted me to. I love them both and would do pretty much anything for them. It WAS weird.
I am only documenting my experience.
You want conversation? Feel free to emal me.
josh - that one awkward situation in the back of the warehouse...I thought we promised to never speak of this...EVER (backend...funny!!)
Bro, you don't owe me shit (that actually goes for both of ya), but that doesn't mean i won't try and call you out!! Just like you guys through virtual hand-granades of controversy out there, and then sift through the debris, so will i attempt to twist a few nipples here and there. It's all in good fun!
steve - i do apologize for not recognizing you positive post, which i did read and greatly respect (i just either lacked the time or interest to comment), i stand corrected (i guess i left it out because i felt it weakened my stance...).
speaking of that, i would love some feedback on my latest post:
www.spasiland.com
SCP for life!!!
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