SCP RETREAT

We interrupt the gay marriage discussion for this very important post!!

The Pete and NinjaNun invaded So Cal last week and hung out with the SCP locals. Below are pics of Josh, Zeke, Mrs. Zeke and I cavorting with the vacationing two-some and making some memories along the way.

Good times!

And you can visit Josh's site for more pics, and I am sure Ninja and the Pete will have their pics up as well if you want to capture all angles of the event. And let me tell you, there were many angles to catch!


Enjoy the slideshow. You can also click on a picture to see the full-size version... as if the small versions of Josh weren't enough already!

Gay "Marriage" is Stupid

Gay couples all over California are getting married this week...and for now it's legal. But I think it's stupid. Hear me out.

First, let me be clear on this... being gay is not a sin. (When I refer to gays in this article, I am also including lesbians and bisexuals). I also don't think that sexual acts between homosexuals are sins in and of themselves. This is my viewpoint and it's not my intent to debate it here so let's not go there. I am writing about marriage, specifically gay marriage.

Sure, go ahead, get married...if it's something you want to do. However, I am of the opinion that having the state recognize something legally does not validate a couples private commitment to one another. Nor does it enhance it. In other words, just because me and another person get married should not altar the basic essence of our relationship or commitment to one another. I think we have been convinced that it does, but it shouldn't.

Committing to someone for the rest of one's life is a decision that is made in private. Having a ceremony with friends and family celebrating that commitment (i.e. wedding) is purely optional, however, affirming. Going to the courthouse and getting a marriage license to call each other husband and wife (or wife/wife or spouses), that's a legal step binding each other into a contractual relationship...nothing more or less in actuality.

So maybe you see where I am going with this...

Some have said that gays being given the right to marry weakens the long-held traditional idea of marriage. They say that, now, marriage between a man and a woman has been dishonored.

I say just the opposite.

The gay couples that I have read about this week who have been together 5, 10, 15, 20 years or more who are now getting married are actually weakening and dishonoring the long-held commitments they have shared. It is my opinion that the gay community has missed an opportunity to broaden the church and governments understanding of relational commitment by saying, "we don't want your idea of marriage as the only legal means with which we can express our commitments to one another. Traditional marriage in it's current form is flawed and it has failed."

It seems gay people, in this instance, have become the traditionalists that they tend to avoid. The gay people I know have a unique perspective on life. But in conversations with a few, they have this idea that now that they can get married "validates" them to their families and friends. That although they have always been seen as "less than" and "abnormal", that getting married would give them at least some sort of "normalcy" to parade to those that think this way.

I say that sort of thinking is short-sighted. Instead, I think, gays can lead those of us that are straight to understand a better idea of love. Through them we might learn what it means to love someone even though you have to hide to do it. Through committed gay couples we might learn to love someone in the face of persecution, ridicule or the possible loss of career and family. Maybe if straight couples had to face this type of daily struggle, they would appreciate each other more and less marriages would end in divorce.

To be fair though, I don't think gay couples have stronger relationships than straight couples or that less gay couples will get divorced than their straight counterparts. I would venture to guess that eventually the statistics will bear out that the gay divorce rate will most likely be the same as it is for straight people. So, my question is why do it? Why let the straight world "define" you now when you have spent so many years not wanting to be under their labels?

If I was gay, I would let straight people have marriage. Men and women (not gays) have ruined that word by not respecting the commitments and trust it implies. In the meantime, I think gays should continue to demand that the government recognize their partnerships so that they can have all the benefits and rights that straight couples do. If the current policies aren't strong enough, let's change them.

But, in my opinion, gay marriage is stupid. They really deserve something better than marriage in its current state. Actually, we all do.

Daily Devotional for SCP

Go. Listen. Now.
(Especially the last twenty minutes).

Jesus: Sinner of Sinners

by Jay Bakker

The Not So Relevant Christian

I stumbled over into the Relevant Christian blog. As I scrolled through I came across a post on Jay Bakker and his involvement with Soulforce, whose mission is to "cut off homophobia at its source -- religious bigotry."

I'll leave it to you to read what the author wrote, but needless to say I think the "Relevant Christian" blog is grossly misnamed. Here are my comments on his post (along with his reply).

STEVE C says:
I thought the title of this blog was “Relevant Christian”!??

Nope… just another “ignorant one”!

JIMMY says:
Thank you Steve…I needed a good laugh this morning.

Tell me…where am I wrong in what I said? Whay (sic) does what I said make me ‘ignorant’?

I am willing to listen.

STEVE C says:
I would have said “stupid” instead of ignorant, but I didn’t want to appear rude. However, why quibble over semantics.

So where were you wrong?

1) Jay didn’t say that everyone will be saved. I don’t know, maybe that’s what he believes, but you certainly can’t conclude that from this interview.

You completely take a quote out of context from the interview you cite and conclude that Jay Bakker believes certain things theologically. Re-read the interview. What Jay did say when asked about his church was this: “We’re a church just trying to show people how to love Christ. We open the doors of the church and welcome people in. Just loving people as Christ and being inclusive rather than exclusive.”

Then later this: “there are a lot of people who don’t want you to include everybody. They think that you’re either opening the door too wide or you’re condoning sin and that can be a struggle. But we feel convicted to do what we do. It’s what God’s called us to do–love people where they’re at [in life].”

From what I read, Jay seems to be saying that HIS church isn’t wanting to be exclusionary. They made this decision based on their belief that it fulfills a mission they have which is loving people where they are.

2) Where else were you wrong? You write: “Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their acceptance of the ‘alternative lifestyle’.” That’s a theologically inaccurate interpretation. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah certainly speaks to homosexual gang rape but not to an “alternative lifestyle” as you suggest. Actually I find Lot’s actions even more troubling in the story (offering his own daughters to the rapists who came to the door). This act of Lot seems to even suggest that the rapists weren’t interested in sex with men for the pleasure of sex, but were more interested in power and perversion of any sort. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for many reasons that had nothing to do with the “homosexual lifestyle”.

3) You make this statement: “I have no problem with the idea that we are supposed to love all people…even those who choose to be gay or lesbian…”

In typical condescending fashion you suggest that those who are gay and lesbian are making a “choice”. This extremely simplifies the matter. You make it seem like someone chooses their sexuality like a pair of shoes or what they are having for dinner. If things were only that simple. But for irrelevant and ignorant Christians like yourself it is that simple.

4) And finally, you state: “where I start to have issue with the whole Soulforce connection is that it appears to be advocating their chosen lifestyle.”

Wow!! Where to begin. Soulforce’s mission statement is “to cut off homophobia at its source — religious bigotry.” The same type of bigotry you are espousing here. I know you don’t think you are bigoted but you are…and you just don’t get it. But Jay Bakker does… read his comments next to your own and see who might actually be considered relevant as opposed to oppressive and judgmental.

“The more I love God and follow Christ, the more I want to love other people like God accepted and loved me. God has changed me, but I don’t place that same expectation on other people. I allow God to be God in people’s lives…. “Christians aren’t God. Religious people aren’t God. God loves you, just where you’re at… just the way you are, no matter what you’ve done. God loves you whether you love him or not and there’s nothing you can do about it. As far as the negative and judgmental stuff goes, realize that Jesus has a crappy fan club. Just don’t give up!”

Stuff In My Head (3)

In corresponding with a reader regarding my most previoust post, we began to discuss "faith". I wrote:

Faith doesn't equal certainty. Doubts do not equal lack of faith. Truth is found as you continually seek.

I know I talk a lot about this but these type of conversations fascinate me.

A Pastor's Confession

So you come to church on a Sunday morning.

It is time for the message and the pastor stands up and says,

"Good morning. Today is going to be a little different. I don't have a message or sermon prepared, but I thought maybe I could just talk to you about some things that have been troubling me.

For the last two or three years, I have begin to doubt many of the things I once believed. It's not been so hard to hide these things from you. Since most of the messages I preach have to do with how to be a better friend, or how to serve others, or how to have a stronger marriage, or how to deal with difficulties... it's actually been pretty easy to avoid some of the things that trouble me most.

I stand up here each and every week and feel very inadequate to be your pastor. I love you as my friends and my community, but I have found myself doubting almost everything that we have written in our church's statement of beliefs. And I have been afraid of saying this because being a pastor is all I have ever known. It's what I love to do. And even if I don't believe some of these things, I want to believe them. But wanting to believe doesn't help me to actually believe. However, my desire for knowing the truth remains the same.

I am still the same man I was yesterday... well, except for one thing. I am finally being honest about some of the things going on in my head and heart. I certainly understand that you may not want me to be your pastor any longer. But what I am hoping is that I can stick around and we can discover these truths together."

What do you do??

What should the church do??

A Pastor's Ego on Display

Some of you may remember David Trotter from our site in 2007. He was a pastor in So Cal who was giving away a car to promote Easter at his church, Revolution. If you go back and read the comments, you will see that Trotter was pretty much unwilling to join our conversation, yet instead chose to egg us on and tell us to "keep it coming" with our criticism and attacks, as he labeled them.

Well in light of recent developments, I'd be careful what you wish for David.

A few weeks ago, I received an email from an SCP reader that filled me in on what's been going on in David's life and church. Several people, close to the situation and church, report that Trotter has left his wife after having an affair with another married woman in the church whom he is apparently still in a relationship. He has resigned his position at the church and has moved on to another entrepreneurial venture.

Below, I've provided links to the sites that share the story. They seem fairly consistent and honest, but I will let you read them and draw your own conclusions.

Michelle's Ramblings
A Little Bit of Us...
Sharon's Daily Cup Of Life
RagamuffinSoul
Meanderings of a Restless Wanderer (A pastor at Revolution Church)

Since leaving his church and, from what I can gather, his wife only a few short weeks ago, David has not been a shrinking violet. On his personal website, he posted pictures of him and his new girlfriend with their children all together playing in the pool and hiking...just another new blended and happy family. On the site he wrote:

As I think about the season of life that I'm walking through, my heart is filled with hope, anticipation, love, peace, longing, and grief. May the photos that appear each day allow these same emotions to emerge in your heart once again as well.

When I saw these pictures (one with his girlfriends' head on his shoulder and another with his girlfriend holding his son), I was shocked. It was a bold and brazen display showing a lack of sensitivity for his wife of so many years. It was not only in bad taste, but it was also bordering on cruel and unusual punishment. (About a week ago, the pictures on the site were removed - so either a sense of decency crept in or possibly his lawyer suggested such actions might not be in his best interests moving forward).

I have thought long and hard about what I should say, if anything, about these developments in this man's life. I don't know David Trotter, or anyone in his family... so why do I care? Originally, I was going to write an open letter to David (much like the one I did to Ted Haggard) encouraging him and admonishing him to not lose heart in the midst of this season of life he is facing. Looking back on that letter, I think it certainly applies to David Trotter as well. I hope he will read it.

However, after seeing his personal site and this damaging attitude that he has displayed publicly on the world wide web, I just couldn't in good conscience muster up the decency. I am not sure what it is that occurs in the life of someone when they leave their family to pursue another relationship... but from what I have observed first-hand it is the ultimate in selfishness - call it temporary insanity. As I wrote in my journal recently about this very subject:

In meeting your needs at the expense of others needs, you have to "turn off" thinking about how your actions effect the other person. You might feel sadness or pain at hurting someone later, but in the moment of choosing what is best for you, you cannot consider the other person's feelings. There's a certain disconnect that occurs at that very moment.

Feeding of an ego at the expense of other people's pain becomes a vicious and destructive cycle. Once you venture down that path, there is no turning back. Things will never be the same again. David Trotter knows this first-hand now better than anyone.

At the same time, I believe that David (and again I speak from personal experience) in many ways, feels more at peace, fulfilled and happy than he has in years. While I am sure he is sad at the pain he has caused, there is probably a sense of freedom that has enveloped him in the midst of no longer having to live a dual life. I no doubt imagine that David feels that, in many ways, his life is better than it was prior to this coming to the surface. And on several levels that might even be correct.

His level of ego and selfishness, once hidden behind doing the "Lord's work", is now being lived out in the open for all of us to see. Even now on his personal website is this quote that speaks volumes:

“The mark of a great player is in his ability to come back.
The great champions have all come back from defeat.”

Certainly Trotter has shown that he is a great player. I knew that from the very first day I was introduced to him regarding the car giveaway. But, for even one moment, thinking that he was a great champion on any level in his prior life as a pastor is an inflated ego gone mad.

This story has captivated me since I heard about it. I can relate from so many angles. Mostly, I keep coming back to the Trotter I observed approximately one year ago on this site, and honestly, I wasn't surprised that it has led him to this point. However, I am a bit surprised at how he has reacted to it.

There's no judgment in these statements. Just an honest opinion from years of observations.

What guys like Trotter don't understand is that although I am critical of pastors and churches in my writings here on SCP, it's because I feel I often know them better than they know themselves.

David, I am almost certain you are reading this and I want you to know and believe this - the Stupid Church People site was created by guys like you for guys like you. Take your mask off and stay awhile. You are welcome here anytime...just check your "pastor ego" at the door.

NOTE (4/28/08): An email from a reliable source informed SCP that the reason the pictures were taken down from Trotter's personal site was that the woman had ended the relationship and returned to her family.